Pre-Hatch Impact Hours Distribution Analysis

My goal throughout this process has been to answer specific questions that the community has. Working with @ygg_anderson and a few other people has helped me see the importance of also building tools (dashboards, etc.) so the community members can answer their own questions. Those are skills I will work to build in the future.

Here is my video on calculating some quantitative metrics for decentralization/distribution of Impact Hours compared to some other projects:

I am hoping to do one on the distribution by different categories later today. I hope this is informative and helpful.

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Impact Hour Intervention - Tokenlog voting session

Tomorrow, June 22nd at 7pm CET - 1pm EST, we’ll have a session to share the praise analysis results, chat about proposals and decision making and open space to listen to each other. :loudspeaker:

:memo: Call agenda

:star: @ygg_anderson and the Labs team will present the praise analysis tools and findings, including this awesome Praise Analysis Dashboard!
:star: We’ll go over the decision making process and share the problem set.
:star: Everyone who wants to share their opinion on possible solutions will have 1.5 min
:star: If we have extra time, we’ll start hacking on proposals.

How will the decision making process work?

Similar to the MVV and params sessions on Tokenlog, so most of us are already familiar with it. Here is a step-by-step. :slight_smile:

Step 1 - PROPOSING

  • Go to Tokenlog · Token-weighted backlogs
  • To submit a proposal, click on “new issue”. This will bring you to a Github issue template.
  • Mark YES or NO for the first 4 questions.
  • Play around with the Dashboard to help you make an informed proposal.
  • Explain which interventions you are proposing and their reasoning.
  • You can also propose no interventions and share your reasoning.
  • Click “Submit new issue” when you’re done. It will pop up automatically in Tokenlog.

What if someone submitted one or more interventions I like, but I want to change or add something?

  • Copy and paste the ones you like and credit it by mentioning the number of their issue.
  • Add you changes.
  • Add “fork of #x” to the title and submit your issue.

Step 2 - VOTING

  • You can vote if you have Impact Hours and/or a CSTK score.
  • Go to Tokenlog · Token-weighted backlogs
  • Choose the xDAI network on your wallet
  • Click “connect” on the top right corner, make sure to be logged in your Trusted Seed address
  • Pick your favorite proposals and distribute your votes! Tokenlog uses Quadratic Voting.

How is the winner chosen?

If a proposal has more votes than all the other proposals combined it is the clear winner. Otherwise, the top 3 to 4 submissions will have a runoff voting round and the one with more votes will win. Because of the potential for votes to be split amongst forked proposals that are similar, the Community Stewards will choose the top submissions for the runoff in an open call on the following Tuesday, June 29th at 7pm CET.

What if there is a polarized scenario, where 2 different proposals have an evenly split majority of votes in the run-off?

(By evenly split, we consider a difference of less than 10 votes between first and second place.)

In this case, the top 2 authors will be invited to a hack session to merge their proposals together and commit to a collaborative result.

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Jeff! What you are doing is super brave and it’s important to stand for our beliefs, voice our concerns and suggest ways to improve. I’m sorry that you have felt disheartened and misunderstood, so I want to thank you for opening this discussion and for all the contribution you have done to the TE ecosystem, with the same strong ethics and skill.

This kind of processes are the ones that test our capacity to integrate feedback and improve our initial ideas. We are passing from fix to adaptive, in order to be short term responsive and long term strategic by proposing innovative solutions to our problems.

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Here is my report specifically on “Meetings” and “Retweets”:

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Here are the notes from today’s call. Thanks SO much to everyone who joined, special thanks to Ygg, Mohammed and Octopus for all the data analysis and dashboards!

Please submit your intervention proposals ASAP, preferably until Thursday so we have a comprehensive overview to vote on until next Tuesday!

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I wish that we had a few people who would read Alfie Kohn’s book called “Punished By Rewards”. Summary: Kohn - Outline of notes from Punished by Rewards

I feel like I barely do anything in this community but try to bring awareness to personal development, interpersonal relationships and organizational development; but I have a lot of praise and impact hours.

It’s flattering, but not granular. I like Sebnem’s Dada group’s Ikigai on this:

“Visible, but not measured”

Which recognizes the aspects of the flow of feeling and praise for a specific set of needs being met, rather than a flatland idea of “praise” by itself.

Also, it seems to me that it’s not particularly important that “praise” in and of itself is not required to be all that fungible. Why can we not create a system whereby I, as a part of my own profile, be seen as someone who is “grateful” in one of the 8 forms of wealth: Sharma: The 8 Forms of Wealth | SUCCESS to some people?

Rather than “assign praise TO people”, we would ALLOW people to assign gratitude to themselves FOR a specific kind of wealth they have been given BY a certain person.

In this way, we handle the ACTUAL ownership of the gratitude where it belongs, and then you can see how someone’s relationship was shaped by their interactions, creating a map of their interaction and positive expressions toward others.

I find myself barely engaged in the praise system, as it does not speak about the only person I really care about- myself. That might sound horribly narcissistic, but what I’m saying is that changing how one represents one’s GRATITUDE is far better than representing it through praise, in my view.

We could still perhaps sum up ALL praise if we decided to do so, but I am continuously disappointed by the lack of actual humanity that the singular praise system flatland implies. I want to express my full self. Praise also has a kind of “flattery” feeling to it that irks me. I want to simply REVEAL MY GRATITUDE without having to SAY IT to them directly all the time.

Moreover, I wish that I could express my gratitude in terms of what ACTUAL impact a person has had upon the group itself- not just how I express gratitude in a personal way but also toward how I witness their impact upon the group.

For this, I’d want to use terms and representations that make sense to ME, regardless of the larger group’s decisions.

Also, “showing up” does create a certain kind of understanding of their participation in a group, but not in a granular manner. I often just audit some meetings and end up with praise for something I didn’t contribute to.

Why? Perhaps this praise I receive is a way to say “I showed up” and I get that, but I cannot see HOW a person is behaving without seeing also that not ONLY did they “show up” but also communicated authentically, or coordinated well (like Livi and Jess and Griff do, for example) which would be in “clean up” mode.

I myself am not that great at the “grow up” TECHNICAL part of the crypto space, as it’s a bit dense for me and I lack the time to penetrate into the depths of how it all works; even I display the “grow up” portion in other ways and areas. By lacking these things, we cannot properly engage with our community, quantitatively, since we are ‘flattening’ everything into mere praise.

We can see that our participation in a group setting would be greatly impacted by how one chooses to “show up” in a social setting. Maybe a person doesn’t talk much but when they do they are clearly communicating authentically, and I would want to recognize this, even during the meeting.

In DDOs, they even have created apps to allow for this. Read: An Everyone Culture: An Everyone Culture: Becoming a Deliberately Developmental Organization: Kegan, Robert, Lahey, Lisa Laskow, Miller, Matthew L, Fleming, Andy, Helsing, Deborah: 9781625278623: Amazon.com: Books

In short, I want praise to be a lot more granular and organized on people, not fungibility, or ease of programming or because we’re SO USED TO using oversimplifications of value like fiat currency to represent our gratitude.

In NVC, Marshall Rosenberg says that all we’re ever doing is saying “please” or “thank you”. I just want to be given tools to do this, and to reveal myself as transparently myself in a group like this, where I feel safe to express such things.

So, not having a way to assess or determine someone’s needs is also lacking here in the praise setup. Maybe a person doesn’t participate because they have a higher need for safety than others. Or they show up but never talk because of this. Or find it important to “be there” in meetings but their participation is expressed in other ways. Without other granular tools to assess and quantify these things, it will be harder to engage authentically.

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After seeking advice process with @liviade, I propose we extend the proposal submission deadline to Tuesday, June 29 1pm EST / 7pm CET, begin voting on Tuesday June 29 at that time, and extend the voting deadline for the first round to the following Tuesday, July 5 (at the time of the beginning of Soft Gov. as normal).

Due to current workloads, myself and a few others from the community would like to participate, but are unable to submit proposals by tomorrow.

Extending would allow for 1) more quality proposals 2) time to communicate about the proposal submission and voting.

We gave a lot of time to MVV and other votes, and this vote is equally as important - if not more. I know we have a pressure and want to hatch, but a few days extension will not make too much of a difference (would actually allow more time for Communications) and would give more adequate time to this process. Thank you and I look forward to developing proposals this weekend.

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@durgadas Thank you for that insightful contribution. I agree with you that I think the Praise system has perhaps confounded [still potential] monetary compensation with gratitude, and the two do not seem to mix well unfortunately.

Fantastic comment: “changing how one represents one’s GRATITUDE is far better than representing it through praise, in my view.”

Perhaps the Praise system needs to lose its [potential] monetary value. It appears to be destructive and counterproductive to the concept of praise (small “p” - common noun). I nearly wanted to say it is “counterproductive to its actual intention,” but that doesn’t seem accurate, as I think the Praise system was created as a way to compensate folks who were otherwise not being compensated.

Praise-gate (as @natesuits once called it :stuck_out_tongue: ) shows, among other things, the complexity and essentially impossibility of mixing gratitude with money --or rather perhaps, of “accurately” showing gratitude through money…

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@JessicaZartler, I want to get my head around the impact to timelines from the proposed extension.

Here is what we are currently aiming for:
Jun 29: Primaries close
June 29: Create runoff proposals
Jun 29 - July 1: Runoff
Week of July 5: Hatch

Admittedly, it’s the fastest option. The runoff proposals would be made quickly and the runoff would happen quickly, though there will be fewer, and more distinct, proposals on the table so deliberation should not need to take so long. But it does all happen during the week.

Would the timeline you are proposing look like this:
July 6: Primaries close
July 7: Create runoff proposals
July 7-13: Runoff
July 16/17/18: Hatch

When I look at this timeline, I question whether there would be any real significant benefit from drawing it out this long.

An extended version that was discussed in case the target was unachievable looks like this:
July 1: Primaries close
July 2: Create runoff proposals
July 2-6: Runoff
July 9/10/11: Hatch

It allows some more time for the initial proposals to be voted on and for the runoff to happen over the weekend instead of mid-week. I’d offer this as an extended alternative if we want one.

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We had to create a new repo for Tokenlog, please submit proposals to this one → Tokenlog · Token-weighted backlogs

I already edited all the other posts with the old links, but posting it again here just to make sure everyone is in the right one :slight_smile:

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I think this looks great and contemplates everyone. @JessicaZartler does this look good for you?

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Gentle reminder to submit your IH intervention proposal if you have one in mind! We’ll have the results of the primaries on Thursday during the community call, and it would be great to have at least two days fully for voting, when all the proposals are there.

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Today we had our first SourceCred test distribution. This sheet of percentages of rewards is also very insightful for our praise discussion

Great points and important considerations, thanks for the post @durgadas! :pray:

I am about a quarter way through Punished By Rewards, and what I have taken away thus far on Alfie’s view on incentives is that:
A. they work (as evidenced through the study of token economies), but
B. they give a lot of power to the people setting the incentives, which can be dangerous due to the potential for manipulation of others.

Thus far, the main question for me has boiled down to: Is there a way we can set incentives for ourselves to encourage socially beneficial behavior, both for ourselves and those who choose to operate in these new paradigms with us?

I believe we are on the cusp of new coordination tools that can tip the default behavior from defect-defect to cooperate-cooperate for a wide range of public goods - but Alfie speaks about incentives almost exclusively from an “imposed from the outside” perspective, which I find a little insufficient in terms of how these considerations can factor into how we are using them - as internalized, community-directed incentive mechanisms for mutual benefit.

I appreciate your philosophical insights into the use of these kinds of reward tracking systems, and I agree that perhaps gratitude should factor into the ways that we recognize and appreciate what we & others bring to the table. I also strongly resonate with your statement that connecting praise to money was perhaps an overreach of the praise system. This thinking helped to inspired the proposal I submitted yesterday.

On initial calculation, 96-98% of all IH holders are better off under this more equitable distribution (compared with ‘no intervention’), including most of the core community of TEC stewards. It seems strange to me that the inflated IH rewards accrued by less than a dozen people should be held as more important than a broader, more equitable distribution of IH for 97% of participants.

I invite readers to vote for more equitable distribution of Impact Hours for work done in the TEC.

Vote for :fire: Praisemageddon :fire:

The primaries were delayed 24h, so they will close tomorrow, June 2nd at 8:30pm CET. Following that we’ll have a session to prepare the runoff votes and continue with the following dates:
July 2: Primaries close
July 2: Create runoff proposals
July 2-6: Runoff
July 9/10/11: Hatch

Please take a look at the info here if you have any questions about how this vote is running :pray: Pre-Hatch Impact Hours Distribution Analysis - #50 by liviade

Hello everyone. I got curious and took a look at the json raw voting data on the tokenlog page. Having seen these results it feels that this data can help inform our voting designs and the current discussion about IH distribution.

Please read this link for more information about it:

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It has been requested to post the text here, so here it is:

Disclaimer

No system is perfect.

We are at the vanguard of self governance.

We learn with every experiement and continuously improve our system designs.

What this is about

Using the json raw voting data on tokenlong (view stats), I was curious to see how quadratic voting would play out given our specific Voting Power algorithm that accounts for IHT and CSTK tokens.

I am sharing what I found because we are counting on quadratic voting as a type of mitigation against a few whales determining the outcome of a vote. It does not appear that this data backs up that assumption. That is my initial impression. There may be arguments that we want a few whales to be able to do so. That they have earned the right. I may have made a mistake in my calculations. I leave these possibilities open to the community to determime.

I anticipate that there will be people with very strong opinions about this result. And there is a real risk that discussions about this will necessitate extending the target date for the Hatch. Or worse, result in any negative sentiment. We are a kind, compassionate, respectful, introspectful and data-driven community and I hope that is enough to avoid the latter.

Link to the xls

Here is the xls. This file does contain the unique addresses parsed from the json but for the sake of simplicity I have assigned each unique address a simple name: Voter A, B, C, etc.

Others are welcome to use this file for deeper analysis that my cursory one.

Voting Power

To the best of my knowledge, this is how Voting Power has been assigned for our use of Tokenlog. I texted directly with Wesley who was generous with his time and explained it to me patiently. If I have made a mistake in my understanding, I welcome the correcion. My goal is to have a shared understanding so we can improve.

Multiplier = the ratio beteen the two token supplies.

Simply put: The % held of the IHT supply is multiplied by the multiplier and then the CSTK score is added that figure.

The examples below show an approximate amount of IHT and CSTK suppy. They are not exact but not far off. The examples were chosen to showcase two opposite-ended cases:

  • High IHT, low CSTK score
  • Low IHT, high CSTK score

Examples:

500 IHT (5% of 10,000 supply)
600 CSTK (0.06% of 1,000,000 supply)
Multiplier, the ratio between the two supplies, is x100.
(500x100) + 600 = 50,600 VP

100 IHT (5% of 10,000 supply)
20,000 CSTK (2% of 1,000,000 supply)
Multiplier is still x 100
(100x100) + 20,000 = 30,000 VP

I wanted to share a discussion we’re having on Discord to make it more visible.

My understanding of Quadratic Voting is that the “amount” of votes should be the square root of the “cost” of voting power utilized. In the raw JSON data, this is mostly true, but not uniformly. There are places where the amount is not equal to the square root of cost, sometimes significantly so. This is not a simple rounding issue.

Does anyone have insight into why that might be?

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Great analysis @Tamara, it is important to understand the underlying dynamics of the signaling tools we use for decision making, and their implications on the output. Thanks for pulling this together! An important step in our collective learning process.

Good catch @octopus - not sure why this might be, but I did notice something funny in the voting process that could be a possible culprit. Since I didn’t want to vote all in one block, but rather spread votes across multiple proposals, I submitted several subsequent votes for the same proposal, and noticed some funny math when adding tokens later (e.g. 1 of my votes cost 257 tokens, which seemed strange to me.) Perhaps there are some edge cases in the quadratic calculation when casting subsequent votes?

I was mistaken previously; when cost ≠ (amount)^2, it is always the case that cost > (amount)^2.

It does seem that this happens when the same tokenAdress votes more than once for the same number. I can’t figure out any more than that at the moment.